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Hi Michael,
I have scanned the photos so will send once I have your email address. The needle roller bearing I referred to was the one for the roller, which is attached to the other end of the drop arm shaft to the drop arm.
Two other possibilities for free play; worth checking before you spend time on the box.
1/ The steering idler arms, which are bolted to the underside of the chassis. Check if these tip or display side movement whilst someone rocks the steering wheel….wheels on ground.
2/ King pins. These are an unusual arrangement, with a cup and cone bearing at the top, and a large bronze top hat bearing at the bottom. To check; wheel off ground, grasp the wheel at top and bottom, and rock it hard. Important to do this whilst someone presses hard on the brake pedal. You can then check without the brakes….any additional free play showing then will mean your wheel bearings need attention.
Both 1 and 2 rely on the car’s automatic chassis lubrication system. A great arrangement, but massively compromised by using the car’s sump as its reservoir…especially given the propensity for less modern oils to turn to sludge. If you have that system…you need to check that it is working. That on my V12 largely came to life with use of the car, and a change to Duckhams Q20/50 detergent oil…the detergent aspect really doing what it said on the tin! Do take advice however before using a detergent oil.
If the system has been removed (it has on my LG6, and I wish it hadn’t been!) you will have grease nipples (presumably). Grease is OK for the steering idlers, but the kingpins need OIL. I use Hypoy 90. I’ve recently done a full lubrication service on my LG6….a long and messy job, given the need for oil in many cases.
Regards
Laurence
Hi Mike,
Welcome to the forum.I can recommend Steering Services, located in Dorking (UK). See: http://www.steeringservices.co.uk/ . They rebuilt my LG6’s steering box in 2000. Actually I went to him to buy the parts required…but his quote to do the job was so little more than the cost of the parts that I had him rebuild it. Postage obviously an issue, so if you feel competent, ordering the parts might well be your best option.
The box dismantles fairly easily; if you like send me an email and I will send you scans of photos of the parts arrayed in order. By far the worst job is removing the drop arm. Once you’ve removed the humungous nut (split pin first), you will need a substantial puller to separate this. I used a hydraulic puller, even that had to be wound up pretty tight. Clean and check the drop arm and splined spindle ends for alignment marks, or make marks, to aid reassembly.
As initially rebuilt, I could not turn the inner column by hand, so I took the box back. The rebuilder stated that that was correct (obviously far more leverage using the steering wheel), but accepted there could be more friction as a needle roller bearing was unobtainable, and he had replaced it with a plain bush. On his recommendation, I had the shaft ground to accept available bearings.
I still think it’s too tight! Oil leaking from the front plate indicated that there were insufficient spacing shims. Also, now the steering centres with the steering wheel clamp uppermost, whereas I’m sure it should be facing the floor. This may though be because, being a special, the column is at a lower angle than original.
So DIY might be your best option anyway. I think those brass shims either side of the main housing set not only the bearing free play, but also, by trial and error, the centralisation of the steering wheel position.
I suspect my heavy steering could result from insufficient adjustment shims and that the needle roller change for plain bearing was a red herring. Hopefully your bearing will be in re-useable condition.
Take care with the aluminium housing on the end of the box through which the stator tubes emerge. There is a tiny clamp with small nut and bolt to loosen first, then two nuts bolted onto studs on the front plate. Mine is cracked where it bolts to the lower stud…very fragile. Take photos of lever positions before you dismantle!
Laurence
Hi Mark,
If it helps, my V12’s engine had its original paint, and that was the grey already described. The LG6’s engine was repainted when it was “rebuilt”, but it is that same grey, so I assume they matched the original.As an aside, the V12’s gearbox was painted silver, even though much of it is aluminium….my understanding is that this seemingly pointless finish was primarily to seal potentially porous castings….and Lagonda’s aluminium does seem to have been pretty poor quality.
The only item I have found with white/creamy white paint is one of the V12’s petrol filler pipes. Perhaps these are handed and one side was painted for easy orientation.
Laurence
Hi Andrew,
My LG6 ignition is by a Vertex magneto and Lucas coil/distributor. In my case, the distributor is a DM6A for which Lucas state a range of 18-20 degrees. It does have a vacuum capsule, which is not connected/operational. The Vertex magneto, which I am told is correct and probably original, has timings advance marked as 0 degrees at 500rpm, 7 degrees at 700rpm, and 14 degrees at 1730rpm. My understanding is that the “rpm” referred to on the data plate is magneto rpm, not crankshaft rpm. Hence these would translate as 1000, 1400, and 3460 crankshaft rpm.Unless you fitted the DK6A, it might be worth removing its baseplate to see if the advance/retard bob weights and springs are still fitted. If they are, your easiest option might be to remove those and find a way of locking the mechanism so that ignition timing does not vary. Then, at least you have two ignition systems firing at the same point (ideally I understand, with a 2 degree variance between the two systems). The downside is that you will loose the automatic advance, but then as original, you would be driving without that anyway.
Your present set-up must involve a very large variance in ignition firing, depending on engine speed, if the automaticadvance / retard is functioning. You would certainly need to check that, if connected together, that full advance on the column control, plus full centrifugal advance, does not exceed your desired maximum advance. I believe current thinking is 28-30 degrees BTDC.
A separate automatic advance/retard fitting for the magneto would be preferable; but I doubt such items are available?
If it is practicable to separate the linkage between the magneto and the distributor (it is separable on the LG6, Meadows Sanction 4 engine), my “easiest option” recommendation would be to do that. Have the distributor fixed, and set it so that it fires either at 28-30 degrees at say 3500rpm, OR if you don’t regularly stretch your engine that far, at whatever maximum advance you wish for your favoured touring rpm. I would then set the column control advance to achieve up to that setting. With that set up, I would run mainly on the distributor, and just switch in the magneto for stretches where your engine speed is fairly constant.
Ideally you need to replicate the original ignition set-up, and play with the advance/retard lever as necessary, or convert to an ignition arrangement where both automatic advance / retard settings match. Of course, there is no problem running on one ignition system only (which, as my magneto hardly works, is exactly what I’m doing), however you will get more complete burning of the mixture with a twin ignition system. When both systems were working on my car, the idle speed increased 50rpm when the second system was switched in.
LaurenceHi Mark,
Rang Wessex Workshops a couple of days ago; seems they no longer work on water pumps.
Spoke with E P Services today; seems they are pretty familiar with Meadows pumps, so they seem favourite. Thanks for pointing me in their direction.
LaurenceHi Mark,
Not too fussed about sealed bearings….frankly I’d be happier turning the stauffer occasionally and knowing that the bearings are continuously being supplied with fresh grease.I’ve come across a retired engineer advertising in the VSCC newsletter who is confident he can do the work, but ideally needs to know which bearings and seals to use.
Any chance you have those details; perhaps on E P Services invoice?
LaurenceHi Bill,
Many thanks, but have already tried Alan; unfortunately the guy he used is no longer alive, and he doesn’t know anyone else doing this.
LaurenceNot a model I’m familiar with, so excuse if this is daft. But is it possible the new fabric joints are thicker? Would fractional movement of the gearbox forward resolve this issue? Possible that the new coupling dimensions may differ slightly, or that retightening of the nuts will make a difference?
LaurenceBarry,
The previous owner had my LG6 (Meadows) engine rebuilt by vintage engine “engineers”, who (correctly) used modern TWR Volvo pistons. However they assembled the engine using modern Volvo tolerances.
Result: the engine seized after 500 miles. Reason: although maximum RPM is relatively low, the piston speed is quite high. Oil thrown up from the crank doesn’t just lubricate the piston, it cools it. That oil has to travel much higher than it would in a modern short stroke engine.
So: less lubrication, less cooling (and remember that with the lower compression ratios used, engines run hotter) and higher piston speed mean that Meadows engine pistons run much hotter than the same piston in modern engines. More heat means more expansion, hence the need to use wider tolerances than the Volvo piston manufacturers state, for Meadows application.
As an aside, the “engineers” correctly diagnosed the problem with my engine, and rebored the engine….this time going too far….so my engine lacks compression and blows out oil, despite being a fully “professionally” rebuilt engine.
LaurenceHi Bill,
Graham at VCSA told me that he does buy in shock absorbers, so it is possible that me might have what you want, or could be asked to look out for the ones you seek.
LaurenceHi Bill,
Although the pump output may be individually adjustable, there are indeed restrictors in the piping circuit. It is these that get blocked…what a grossly stupid idea it was to use the sump oil as the supply, especially given the nature of pre war oil to sludge. As an aside, I ran my V12 on detergent oil, and found this did actually get through where straight oil had not. Areas that had been dry / unlubricated for years came to life. Might also have helped that I did use the car quite a lot, whereas previous owners covered just 2000 miles in 20 years. Those that did not clear I removed and used a syringe on the output end to attempt cleaning….not successful in every case.
LaurenceHi Bill,
I had the steering wheel for my Riley RMB restored by Myrtle, who are based in Kent. Very good firm to deal with, happy to discuss what you require. The restoration, including recoating, came to around ?275. I didn’t think that was overly expensive…and I have to say it is one of the few aspects of the restoration of my Riley that I’m 100% satisfied with.
LaurenceThere was a Meadows engine advertised in “The Automobile” magazine fairly recently. The ad stated it was suitable for Lagonda/Invicta, so presumably not an engine originally fitted to a Lagonda. Might be of use though, at least for most of the parts.
LaurenceMany thanks for the Movietone clip, great to see a V12 in action prewar.
Regarding FPK550, what a shame for such a historic car to end up as a special. That said, at least it isn’t a fake Le Mans, and the design and execution appears excellent (if misguided!).
I’ve been compiling a register of V12s, and this one is a mystery! Firstly, the only chassis number I can find quoted is 19221, which is evidently spurious. Does anyone know the actual chassis number, and engine number?
My notes indicate that FPK550 was reregistered as NPJ680, famously butchered by Stanley Mann. Are they indeed one and the same car?
Incidentally…has anyone else noticed that this car has weirdly been converted to beam front axle?!
Laurence
Thought I’d read through the factory handbook thoroughly. Now I see it states that the flywheel pictured on page 28 has an IVO marking at 5 degrees. It comes down to semantics. One would infer that that is correct for the LG6 one has just bought…but no, it really does mean those are the marks shown in the picture!
Hidden in the text a couple of paragraphs lower, it actually states that IVO is in fact 8 degrees. Relieved as that is close to my estimate for my flywheel markings. I’ve now reset my tappets which brings openings closer to that setting. But I daresay I’m not the only one to have altered their camshaft sprocket setting to the 5 degree setting. Having last driven the car 16 years ago and only just got it back on the road, I’m not inclined to engage in the major dismantling involved in resetting it…especially as I will probably have major work done on the engine sooner rather than later.
This still leaves the mystery of the offset from centre line clearly scribed/stamped on the side of the hole for viewing the timing marks. This is surely intended as a timing mark, so why is it not central, in line with the crankshaft?
Laurence