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The Gullwing N.Y. car is definitely an LG45, leaf springs and beam axle indicate that. There appear to be parts missing, ie front apron, air silencer, but that looks quite a good price for that car.
Hi Charles,
Wow, unusual for a car to still have at least the major part of its original tools. I suspect a major factor in its survival is that lovely fitted tool case. On Lagonda’s own coachwork, tools were in the dummy wheelcase on the NSF wing, some in a tool roll and some in stitched rexine pockets held to the opening “lid”. The flat bar tool is for undoing the filler and drain plugs on the rear axle. There is indeed a list of “Tool Kit” contents, on page 2 of the factory handbook. Let me know if you’d like a scanned copy.
I managed to buy a tool roll which included some of the tools; fortuitously, most of these tools are actually stamped “WAR FINISH”, perfect for my December 1940 registered V12. Are yours similarly marked? Most of the tools are of “Shelley” manufacture.
Sounds like you have the almost mythical “…further valve holding tool should it be necesary to change the valve springs without removing the cylinder head.”. This is only mentioned in the handbook text, and bizarrely but typically, not included in the said Tool Kit list!
I’d be very grateful if you could email me photos of your tools, and if practicable specific photos of the valve spring compressor and special tool. Also if you have it, of the water pump impeller withdrawer (annoyingly I had one made up but it has disappeared!)
Laurence
Hi Charles,
I’ll re-send that and my latest email, member list shows “A” intead of “a”; could explain non-arrival.
Ha ha. Lagonda produce a revised handbook?! Whilst there appear to be two bindings, an earlier type in book format, and the later type similar, but with a fold down flap, the page content never altered. Indeed, one photo at least, is actually of an LG45.
I was lucky enough to buy a handbook for a late model V12, and I can tell you that Lagonda dealt with updates by simply sticking in “errata slips” in red ink. The first of these refers to alterations to be made on no less than seven pages. Unbelievable, for a car costing the price of three quite decent houses, at that time. The later handbook at least, is actually of loose-leaf format, so presumably there was intention to print fresh/replacement pages. Doubtless the war put paid to any hope of that.
One of the most important amendments was to the firing order. When my fibre gear failed, I checked the camshaft positions before stripping further. On reassembly, I set it up with the Sanction 2 (3 or 4 if you believe those existed!) timing. This evidenced that the timing on one cam had been around 180 degrees out! The engine started immediately; previously, after pressing the button for around a minute, you might have got a few pops and bangs. I’d only driven the car 100 miles, so the gear failure was disastrous….but getting the timing right as a consequence was amajor silver lining.
I’m pretty certain all V12s and LG6s had the all-electric gauges; these are 6 volt and there is a 6 volt “potential divider” behind the dash…be careful not to omit that if rewiring. It sounds like you have a handbook; you should have a wiring diagram included at the back of that (also a page describing the SU Thermostatic Carburetter), and that does show the instruments and potential divider.
If you don’t have it, I can strongly recommend the Club’s publication “Revised Handbook Lagonda V12”, which includes the wiring diagram. Bear in mind however that this diagram is April 1938, so does not include, for example, the green warning light and wiring run necesitated from the tank sender, as fitted to later cars and indeed included in the errata details.
Another publication worth buying is the “Trader Service Data No. 73” issued with the “Motor Trader” magazine dated September 13 1939. The Club sells copies of this, but my opinion is that the photos are so much clearer (and usefully, different to those in the handbook) in an original, that it is worth paying a little more for one. A dealer is (and has been for many years!) advertising one for ?18, however they do come up occasionally on ebay, selling for much less than that. If you have one of these and the factory handbook, you are pretty close to having most of the information you would expect from a pukka workshop manual.
Let me know if you receive my emails; re-sending next!
Laurence
Hi Charles,
I did send you an email on 23rd March; it included photos so may have gone to your “junk” folder. Take it the member list email address is correctly stated, with capital “A” in Atkinson?I’ll reply later today re the idler gear by email to you; let me know if you’d like me to re-send the 23rd March one.
You refer to a front thrust washer, do you literally intend “washer”? Mine had a shaped and if I recall correctly, beveled edge copper plated retainer, with a locating ridge on the inner face that made it a pretty tight fit in the spigot.
Doesn’t say much for recent Jaguar design! It amazes me the errors (often foolhardy cost-saving related) that modern manufacturers make, given over 100 years of automobile manufacturing lessons learnt.
Laurence
Hi Charles,
I’ve now found those engine photos I mentioned earlier, so will email these to you later today or tomorrow.Amazingly, I’ve also found part of the instruction notes I gave to the engineer machining the idler gear spigot for me in 1977. Quoting from that, “Copper plated retainer is removed by holding it and undoing nut. The stud in main housing has a LEFT hand thread, but should not need to be removed. When reassembling, note that the retainer has a vertical line which is in line with the stud hole which does not have a small hole drilled near it. The retainer is a tight fit, and should be rotated backwards and forwards as it is pushed in, to ensure that it is fully home.”
So, it looks like Lagonda dealt with the anticlockwise rotation of the gear by making the stud left-hand threaded where it screws into the spigot itself. So, as opined previously, it seems that self-unscrewing of the nut on this stud would be dealt with by using a castellated nut and split pin. Unfortunately I don’t think I’ve got any photos showing this detail. If your stud is undrilled, Loctite with an ordinary nut should do the job just as well.
Incidentally, the firm that made the new gear for me back then was Schofield & Samson Ltd, in north London. Unfortunately it seems they no longer exist. Their invoice does detail the gear specs so if that might be helpful, let me know.
Laurence
Hi Charles,
I understand that V12 cranks often prove to be cracked, so do check. I
opted for a new crank for mine; safe to 7000rpm a major appeal. Expensive, but then at around ?100 in 1939, they were expensive when these cars were new. In fact arguably if you consider ?100 could almost buy you a new basic car in the late thirties, a new one is relatively less expensive today.If you opt for a fibre gear, do check the source if buying ready made. One I bought many years ago from an American source proved to have had the teeth cut to that commonly used for such gears. Indeed it looked right…but the teeth did not engage. It transpired that Lagonda had chosen to use a slightly different tooth angle.
Laurence
Hi Charles,
Welcome to the Forum, Club and V12 ownership.This spigot is the odd sort of part that club spares might have, possibly unidentified; so worth a call to Robin if you haven’t already done so.
My car is the next later chassis number to yours, and I am in the process of getting it running again. I last drove it in 1983!
Mine had the original factory idler gear, which was in fact made of “Celeron”, a similar material to Tufnol. The aluminium (or possibly duralumin) one you have discovered would have been a later replacement. Beware replacing with another metal one. As you state, the earlier engines had bronze idler gears. Those engines also had oil jet pipes spraying oil onto the gear teeth. If your engine is like mine, you will not have those. Presumably Lagonda felt that the additional oil spray was not necessary for a fibre gear. I had a new gear made up by Freedom Engineering. I can email you details if you would like more info.
I had only owned my car a month, and only driven 100 miles, when this gear stripped. This was back in 1976, and the London firm I took it to averred that it had stripped because of oil starvation. Many years later, I discovered that this starvation was because my engine was missing the vibration damper. Believe it or not, the damper is deliberately designed to also act as an oil thrower for these gears.
Your issue however appears to be more likely a restriction in the oil feed to this spigot. Unfortunately after 40 years I cannot recall the oil feed, but Lagonda favoured restricting oil flow by the size of drilling, so there is likely to be a pinhole type hole that you need to attend to.
Now. The Celeron gear had a steel centre, with a pair of bronze open top hat bearings riding on that spigot. When my gear stripped, I found those bearings were a fairly loose fit in the Celeron gear boss. Were the bushes intended to ba a tight press fit in the Celeron steel centre, or were they supposed to rotate separately? The gearmakers making the new gear were unable to advise either way, so I went with how I found it, and they made the bushes up to be a loose engineering fit to the spigot and the steel centre.
Wrong decision. The new fibre gear worked loose on its new steel centre. That firm kindly made up a new steel centre, this time with bronze bushes pressed into place. So….the bushes must rotate with the gear, not separately to it.
I have to say that I noted no tendency for the retaining nut to self loosen. My engine is perhaps unusual in that just about every bolt and stud is drilled for locking wire or split pin, so I can be pretty certain the central stud is drilled and the nut split-pinned. I did take a few photos of the engine dismantled at that time; if I can find them and have one relevant I’ll scan and email it to you.
Do take care to clean out all oilways. The V12’s oil filtration was weirdly basic given the advanced engine design. Hence there is an enhanced possibility of sludge having built up and blocking or partially blocking oil feeds.
As you’re probably aware, originally, the duralumin rods bore directly on the crankshaft. In my case, Dodge racing bearing shells were fitted at a later date, and these appeared to have worked well.
Right, now I’m off to continue removing the nearside front wing. As you will doubtless have discovered already, there are few V12 jobs that are straighforward. This one is typical. Removal is easy….if it wasn’t for the headlamp mounting bar. The wing design means that needs to be removed completely. As it sits between cut-outs in the radiator shell, it can’t be lifted up….and it can’t be moved back because the fan is in the way. So….the radiator and bonnet also need to be removed. Just as well I was thinking of removing those items anyway!
Laurence
Regarding Fernox DS3. I long understood this to be the “choice” product for cleaning the cooling systems of elderly cars. I bought some, and found the instructions somewhat vague as to dilution proportions. So I rang their technical department.
Just as well I did. They stated that they now recommend DS40 very strongly, in preference to DS3, for use in “our” cars. In particular, it seems that DS3 is particularly aggressive with aluminium. Furthermore, DS3 is solely a descalant attacking limescale only, whereas DS40 is a cleaner that will remove rust as well as limescale.
I have therefore since bought a tub of DS40. However, at the time, I was on the verge of getting the LG6 back on the road, and postal delay to me in France could not be countenanced, so I did use the DS3, but at a weaker dilution, and for less time in the cooling system than originally planned. It did clear out a lot but a particular memory was how long it took to entirely flush it from the system, judged by the colour of the water. I could see no noticeable deterioration to the aluminium head water outlet.
Hope this helps
Laurence
Hi Mike,
I see that unfortunately the scanned dismantled LG6 steering box photos I sent you last year don’t include the stator tubes. I can however assure you that the inner tube should pull out of the outer fairly easily. Assuming you have the stator tubes assembly out of the car, try running a blow lamp up and down…that should both expand the outer tube and melt ancient grease sticking the tubes.
You could also measure the presumed damaged area with a micrometer for out of round, then put that area in a vice with the widest measurement to the jaws, compress, and feel as you do for any freeing off of the inner.
Amongst my spares I have some V12 steering head control parts, including the equivalent lever to that for the LG6 hand throttle. From this it is apparent that the control knob ring is merely soldered to the tube.
All this said, your description infers that both stator tubes rotate with the steering wheel shaft?
LaurenceNot familiar with yourparticular carburetter, but the first thing I’d check given those symptoms would be for a blocked jet.
Hi Barry,
It seems chrome finish was a bit pick’n mix at Lagonda. On my LG6, some of the carburetter rods,links etc are chromed, and some aren’t. Famously, when finances were tighter than usual, you got painted lamps instead of chromed ones. Yes many years have passed since 1939, but these are parts that don’t normally need renewing.
The two rocker cover nuts are nickel plated, whereas normally they are chromed, I think. No trace of chrome at all, so I feel unlikely that it’s been polished or worn away. In which case, nickel finish in such a prominent area would surely have appeared incompatible with chrome elsewhere under the bonnet. Interestingly, the arms of both these nuts are drilled at their extremeties for locking wire, which I would associate more with a car intended for competition/racing. Perhaps simply more evidence of fitting simply what came to hand!
LaurenceHi Barry,
I’ve had a closer look at the LG6’s wheel today. There are traces, literally specks!, of chrome just visible on the small visible portion of the spokes between the boss and where the celluloid sheathing starts. The chrome must have been very poorly done originally, probably no copper or nickel “undercoats”, but then they probably assumed a very protected car interior environment. So I think you can rest comfortable with your choice!
LaurenceHi Barry,
Excellent work, it looks great.
The spokes would originally have been celluloid coated, with, if like the V12/LG6, a small raised ridge at the inner ends adjacent to the boss. Certainly the steel parts of the boss are chromed, but poorly originally, inevitably rusty after all these years. leaving one with a wheel needing total dismantling just to get a scarcely visible area rechromed.
LaurenceMy V12 was rebuilt to “as new” standard in 1945 (the youngest car restoration ever?!), including new springs. When I removed these to have them reset and retempered, I dismantled them, and discovered that the interleaving was (unmistakeably from the smell!) bakelite. Not a material I would have considered suitable….yet it was largely still in excellent condition, so clearly up to the job despite that.
Presumably zinc in short supply at the war’s end. The spring rebuilder replaced it with zinc interleaving, however did return the original bakelite strips to me. So…there is a period precedent for plastic interleaving!
Laurence
Hi Barry,
I thought these buttons were intended as a temporary fix for worn springs, to enable putting off the day for removing, resetting and retempering. Also….I think the Club supply these as part of the spares service….although of course it’s probably more cost effective for you to make them, given your location.
On the V12 and LG6, final height adjustment for the rear springs is enabled by means of thin oblong aluminium plates, which fit between the spring saddle underneath the rear axle and the top leaf, with unused ones underneath the bottom leaf. This arrangement is great and simple….but with a huge flaw in that you can only reduce the ride height! As a refinement, there is also a canvas? reinforced rubber “plate” either side of the aluminium plate pack above the top leaf.
Don’t get too anal about setting your ride height now….the new springs will undoubtedly settle somewhat in use. Indeed, I continue to have trouble with the springs I had made 20 years ago…they have been reset several times…but yet again, the LG6 sits too low. So much easier with the torsion bars at the front, where I can alter ride height to my heart’s delight!
Laurence