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Morning Bill,
Good questions, but ones I can answer if I understand your questions correctly.
1st and 3rd Q. The gears on the Lay shaft are all Fixed permanently in place, Other than the “Drop gear” which you call 4th. You need to space and adjust these correctly on each individual box you build or trouble may arise! The mating Herring bone gear should engage tightly with it’s corresponding gear on the Main shaft and this Main shaft gear should float and then be located by the Lay shaft gear. The Drop gear on the input shaft will do the same to the corresponding “floating” gear on the input of the Lay shaft. NO movement is allowed here other than small gear clearance. Your bearings for those gears on the Main shaft should also be absolutely perfect and not sloppy or gear damage will occur!! Obviously the position of the gears on the Lay shaft relates to the gears on the Main shaft and a little trial and error will be needed here to get all perfect. We “bench build” a couple of times just to make absolutely perfect. The synchro hub needs to be centred fairly well with Third and Fourth and the selectors checked for positioning.2nd Q. An even gap is required between 1st and 2nd and preferably between 3rd and 4th, whatever this is depends on the individual box being built. ALL are a little different! However 1mm seems very tight !!! Side load is what breaks the Herringbone teeth more than anything else! Try to avoid forcing 3rd and 4th like the plague!!! as you can imagine, because the gears are only located by their “mesh” with the Lay shaft gear, any side load is taken directly on the teeth! Being weak anyway, this is not good!
4th Q. The sleeve bearing between the input and output shafts is Double floating for the following reason.
Sometimes bearings / shaft assemblies like this have a tendency at certain speeds to “Gyrate” while turning and thus cause damage. By making the bearing float both internally and externally this motion is dampened and therefore nullified! (Look at modern Turbocharger bearings for example)Hope I understood your questions Bill, but please don’t hesitate to post again or phone if you need any other info etc. Pleased to help if we can.
Best regards,
JulianHi Laurence,
Yes, changing rotation would mean a complete new advance mechanism! Shame!
The advance difference I think is due to the extra heat in the exhaust side of the combustion chamber! one theory at least ;o)
But at any rate, it makes a MUCH smother engine!! You can really feel them “grumble” when timed equally!Good luck and have fun “playing”
Julian, Doing the same at this very moment!I have to agree with what has been said here.
For the price of oil compared to an engine build, it is best to use as good a grade as possible. we use Duckhams/BP 20/50 or Motul 300V 20/60 on “performance” engines. But only if recently rebuilt!Old engines as has quite rightly been said, contain a lot of sludge and “crap” and it is not always a good idea to loosen this into the engine and oil system, so a good Non Detergent oil should be used, Millers for example.
I tend to stray away from straight grades as they generally give too high pressure when cold and don’t help poor old engines with corroded and frail fittings and pipework etc! Not to mention the strain on the oil pump drive!If you have a newly rebuilt engine, this should have been meticulously cleaned and scrubbed and so should not have any sludge to “shift” what so ever, your engine does not “know” it’s an old engine, it’s just an engine, nothing else! so give it the best oil possible, including a detergent to stop any future sludge etc from accumulating. With today’s oils there is a good range of very high tec oils available to help our engines run for many more years!
Regards,
JulianMorning Peter,
Try the bottom of this page!
Hope it helps,
Regards,
JulianHi Laurence,
In my mag data I can only find a reference to the “existence” of an AV6 Scintilla, nothing else I am afraid.
However, the only important things in your case are,
1, it looks right,
2, the rotation is the same direction,
3, the automatic advance curve exactly matches the one you already have! This is the most important of all as it will damage your engine if not!!
Only you can check these when you see the mag, it should say the info you need on the tag plate attached.If all is correct. Timing should be set at 2500 rpm ( so all the advance is “in” ) and be 31 degrees BTDC on the exhaust side and 33 BTDC on the inlet.
Good luck,
Julian😆 😆 😆
Sort of Alistair 😉 you have to keep my comments in context though 😉
We make sure that we don’t do anything that could or would not have been done in period.
We will do whatever asked “providing” I considered it “in the spirit of the car in question” and not spoiling a car that was very complete etc. We are careful here and try not to be hypocritical to our “restoration” philosophy. I think Lagonda and most other pre-war manufacturers did the same when they originally made the cars.I would love to think that the blood line of Lagonda ran through me and we certainly have the passion for the marque but I think it may be a too heavy accolade to hold just yet!
Best regards,
JulianBarry, you are very welcome and I look forward to a chat over a nice coffee. I like old bikes too so we’ll have some more to talk about! ;o)
Morning Barry,
Not all M45s or LG45s had a “Meadows” number but if they did it was on the right rear engine mounting lug on the side of the flywheel bell housing, many engines we see do not have this number, and some have had numbers polished off when someone at some time has had the engine polished during a restoration etc. don’t worry, there is and was nothing ever “standard” on a Lagonda as you tend to find out by working on enough of them ;o) even supposedly original unmolested cars come up with the most weird and wonderful fittings and fixtures and many accompanied by period photos proving that they were factory fitted.
In short, just like most pre-war manufacturers, Lagonda would supply anything the customer wanted if he was happy to pay! and remembering that as they were almost always strapped for cash, they often supplied many strange little “tweaks” that the customer did not order also :o)When you look at the factory record sheets that some people are lucky enough to have you will be amazed at the amount of engines and gearboxes etc that were changed by the factory in the first few years, just as Collin has said. Sometimes several engines and boxes on the same car in one year!!!
Funny things Lagondas!
Julian
Hi Chris,
Never too late for interesting comments and observations.
Very interesting to read your views.I do notice Chris in your comments and I notice it a lot with customers I talk to, that when referring to “performance modifications” people tend to associate this with race engines and revy characteristics. Not necessarily so!! These old engines ware designed for very poor fuels etc and mostly have very low compression ratios, terrible port shaping and combustion chamber shapes etc, it is a simple enough job to apply modern thinking, understanding and practices etc to achieve very good and useful power increases all through the rev range and many times improving low end drivability and torque even more than outright power. Of course you can also do it badly as it would seem someone did with your triple carb setup.
CR is also a massively misunderstood “word” that I often have to explain.
In short the only CR number you can easily calculate with any real accuracy is your “static compression ratio” (this is simply your engines volumes etc calculated) BUT this has little real relevance to actual “dynamic compression ratio”
eg. if we take a 2 litre Lagonda, this has some of the worst shaped ports imaginable, the flow is dreadful both in and out of the engine, so our “volumetric efficiency” (cylinder filling) is very poor. (let us say 50% at rpm “X”) so it does not take a genius to deduct that this engine with a 6:1 static compression ratio will actually only be about 3:1 at rpm “X” simply because the engine can not fill it’s cylinders!
Because the initial design is so bad, we can easily help it fill those cylinders with better porting and say a better camshaft profile we immediately increase the dynamic CR and thus help the entire performance curve and gain more torque and ultimate power.I agree with you that the 16/80 is a pleasant engine, in standard good condition it makes for nice driving. The problems we encounter and the comments we get are Motorway driving when one does not want to sit with the trucks but wants to cruise in the middle lane at standard motorway speeds of today’s traffic for any length of time, 70+ mph and also those who like to compete in rallies etc and need a car to pull up the mountains and hills with more ease.
I see Peter’s point, but I don’t see the difference between changing a piston that gives 6:1cr and changing a piston that gives 8:1cr! etc etc etc, Both are new and so Not Original, so if it does not change the external look of the engine and you can not tell it is in there other than the extra enjoyment and ability when driving, then why not! I am sure the components in Peter’s own engine are not exactly as standard either, eg shell bearings to rods, more modern ignition coils etc! are these acceptable but other changes not? Do we revert to using the original pre-war spark plugs too?
Either ABSOLUTELY 100% original with absolutely NO deviation in any way shape or form what so ever. Including leaky oil seals! Surely part of a pre-war car ;o)
OR
Do as you like as long as you keep to “period” modifications.
I would prefer to see original engines and original cars “looking” as they left the factory, but I personally feel we should not be too pedantic!Personal choices for personal vehicles that are used by different people for different uses.
Neither are wrong or right, and we should refrain from trying to impose our views on others, voice them by all means but not “impose”. It is down to the individuals to “choose” that is our right! and let’s face it. The more our cars get used and enjoyed the better our hobby will be!!As for value. Well Peter, your comments need clarifying here with a little “insider knowledge” In the context of engine power your comments are far from the reality! however, I agree that in general a more original car will be worth more than a highly modded one. But if the car looks great but goes very badly then you will struggle to sell it. “period”. (unless it has something extra to offer in the way of super rarity etc) We can now get a very good premium for a 2 litre with one of our special engines fitted, as opposed to a standard 2 litre. They both look exactly the same so it’s Simply because it is much more powerful and usable and “for most” more enjoyable. Same goes all the way through the range! and through many other makes and models right up to the top! Simple reason is that more people own the less rare and less expensive cars and can’t afford the price of an 8c Alfa etc, they want the experience but without paying silly prices. (some want both) They want to do the classic events etc and want to have fun with their cars. They don’t want to be the “slow car” or to spend every evening of the rally fiddling with their engines to try to make them work half reasonably so they can participate the next day! People want cars they can enjoy the pleasure of driving with, and in the majority of cases today this means having a reasonably powerful engine with fairly good reliability! They vote with their pockets and we see this on the showroom floor!
Again, Each to their own and I am not saying you are wrong Peter, just that we are all entitled to our own views! and we as a company are led by our customers / fellow enthusiasts, we do not create things that nobody wants, we do as we are asked! and when asked by enough people we undertake projects like this one.
Very best regards and secretly wishing we were not so busy so we could maybe get a bit further with this project!
Julian
Hi Peter,
I know what you are saying, but you are speaking from the point of view as a V12 owner with 150 bhp under your foot!
With only 50 real hp and a car of 1500kg you may see things a little different if you lived in the hills with such a vehicle?As long as it looks standard, “which it will” and it will have all of it’s original castings etc, then it is still the original engine.
Does yours have it’s original Aluminium con rods with no bearings, original type “Specialoid” pistons etc etc? I suspect not and I sincerely hope not! So what is the difference?But I do agree with your idea of syncro gearboxes and superchargers on otherwise totally original cars. Specials OK though.
Regards,
JulianHi,
Very late reply but have only just noticed this post.
The grove usually goes at the bottom of the bearing and is there to allow the oil level to equalize in all the galleries and therefore equally lubricate all bearings, Generally the bearings are held in place with a small drilling in their side to locate the end of the locating bolt. (as Hans says, just to locate and not to lock)
I don’t think there will be any problem with your method Hans, as long as the oil level stays high enough and or the relevant galleries are kept full by the oil draining from the rocker boxes.Regards,
JulianFantastic little car!
The car passed through our workshop before going to the US.
We sorted a few things out and rolling roaded it etc.
It goes very well for an 1100cc car! Great condition and for that money I would say it was a fair price! Car “IS” as good as the pictures show! Hope the new owner enjoys using it!Julian
Hi,
Very interesting subject!
May I join in with a few views from different sides!
I hear a lot about “Replica” this and “Replica” that but what “actually is a “Replica” ??
I say it is a complete newly made copy (such like the new Auto Unions and Mercedes cars being made now) and thus are a “Complete Replica” AND I MEAN NO DIS-RESPECT BY THIS!
Where as a plastic SS100 Jaguar on XJ6 running gear for example is not a replica but a new car resembling X Y or Z.
On the other hand we have an M45 Saloon with a dead body.
Yes we can restore the body, but what if we need to replace 95% of the frame and panels? We will then have an original M45 with a “Replica” saloon body! Ok it left the factory with the same type of body but this body is NEW! so not original and not “the original” So our car also is not “Original” although it is to original specification! But so are the Auto Unions! There is a difference and I know that well and truly but there is a very indistinct line between what is and what isn’t “original” and on who’s interpretation.Laurence, says he would NEVER buy a “replica” yet he gladly bought a car with a body resembling nothing ever made by Lagonda! I find this very odd but completely respect his thoughts and “thinking” (he just has a different classification of the subject to me) and he is not wrong, just of different opinion on the subject!
If we are to restore this imaginary M45 with a dead body, (or what if we find a complete car with NO body as we have had in on many occasion) and the owner decides that he would rather have an M45 with say a T7 body, the new T7 body if made well, (let us say by one of the best like RJ ltd) will be exactly the same (or as close as any two Lagondas ever were) as every other T7 bodied M45, but it will have a “Replica” body. So in short it will be at the end of the restoration an M45 with a Replica Lagonda Factory body. And so will the car be if Restored with a newly made Saloon body! What is the difference? Again I have my views on how to differentiate but a lot of that is “Gut feeling” rather than something actually definable.
At the end of the day I see it like this.
There are more Lagondas being saved and restored and used because they are fun in whatever incarnation they come back in than would be the case if we all were forced to “preserve” anything and everything that we could of whatever we find! Weather we like it or not, people will pay more for a sports type car than a heavy full bodied car that does not attract the ladies ;o) and when restoring our cars, “Most” but not all of us are forced to think with some consideration to economics! let us face it, not many of us can afford to pile 200k into the restoration of a car that would net us 60k if heaven forbid we were forced to sell it!
The more cars being saved from scrap the better! Totally original or not!My view?
In short, unless it’s my money then it’s not my choice!
I too like saloons, (I have even bought a few just to stop them being molested, and refused to sell them for the same reason) but I like more to see working cars being loved and used than dead wrecks getting worse because no one wants them for what they are or were!Happy motoring,
JulianHi Alistair,
No, never had any problems due to the wrapping,
I have seen many cast manifolds crack due to old age and lean mixtures and or retarded ignition though! It is easy to blame something like thermotec etc or antifreeze for causing manifold cracks or water leaks but we are talking about 70 year old parts now! that were not particularly well designed or developed when new! so it’s about time that some of them show their age ;o)
But no, if the manifold is absolutely flat, fitted well and not over tightened or forced on to tight studs (the manifolds need to slide on loosely before tightening nuts) then you will not have any problems that can not be attributed to old age! If the mixture is correct then the manifolds should be very cool compared to any normal more modern type engine. We regularly check manifold temps while running on our rolling road and never see over 400 deg C even at full throttle with powerful engines on the rolling road!
Though you certainly will if the engine is not setup correctly. You can easily see the manifolds glow red hot if the timing is retarded or mixture to weak!!One of the bigger difficulties is to seal the manifold to the head “without” over tightening! We use black silicone sealer which is absolutely the best exhaust sealer you will ever find!!
And on engines where we are expecting high outputs compared to std, we use no gaskets and use Only Silicone sealer! But again the importance of flat manifold flange faces can not be over stressed!!!Best regards,
JulianHi,
We have side plates in stock if you are in need!However, water mods,
Depending on how far you are going with compression ratios and other mods etc do the following work and modifications.1. Cylinder head and cylinder block, right front 3 cylinders, looking down from above you will see very small water transfer ports taking water from the block to the head, these are usually 1/4″ in dia. Increase all of these “on this area only” to the largest size you feel comfortable to do, keeping them matched to each other. We usually do these to about 7/16″ or so.
2. modify the gasket to match.
3. clean and check the water transfer tubes between right and left sides, inside the block.
4. Top pipes from rear of inlet manifold to front water outlet.
These pipes should CROSS OVER right front to left rear and vice versa! they only need to be about 1/2″ dia though as too big and you get no cooling on the front right 3 again!!
5. If going performance route you can also make external piping to both sides and front and rear equally, this will give you a much better and much less heat temperamental V12 if you intend to drive large hills and mountains etc.Radiator and general cooling wise.
1. Make sure you have a NEW core! old ones will never clean well enough and an engine rebuild is far more costly than a new core!!
2. Remove the heat shrouds from around your exhaust manifolds and cover the exhaust with Thermotec exhaust bandage, do this well and put it on “Very Wet” This will keep hot exhaust out of your engine bay but also allow the hot air that has gone through the radiator to escape to the outside via those lovely big louvres. If you imagine the air trying to get past the engine under the car you will see why V12s regularly over heat! Especially if you remember that ALL old cars and most moderns have a positive pressure under the car when at cruising speeds! Thus hindering the cooling further!
3. Then the final cooling “Coup de gras” is to replace your fan blades for those of a Jaguar Mk11, these are of much better design, flow more air, sap less power and look good also! Easy to fit with only some hand tools and a bit of thought!
A non overheating V12 will emerge, even with a short rad DHC up the mountains!! But keep the cooling system clean!!Good luck.
JulianHi,
Very common sediment for a V12, mostly due to very poor water circulation around the block from side to side and front to back!
Several mods to do to help with that while you are doing your rebuild! Hope this answer is not too late. Drop me a line if I can help.Regards,
Julian