Forum Replies Created
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Looks like a VERY non-standard bit of old asbestos board. I think I know what I might do with that – very carefully and wearing a mask. :
Peter,
I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this site and all your efforts on our behalf. A big THANK YOU from me.
Best regards,
Tim
Simon,
I think that we are almost in agreement re ‘originality’ (whatever that means). Let’s check…
First off, I don’t think that the issue is ‘originality vs restoration’. As i think I’ve said, IMHO absolute originality is hard to define (and thus achieve/obtain) and, in any event, it is open to question as to how desirable such a result might be.
I do agree that each car must be assessed individually.
Re interior, I do agree that, in the vast majority of cases, reconnolising or repair of leather is the best solution – always assuming that the existing colour is desired by the owner. Original interior wood (and other) trim is also almost always best, although I can think of exceptions e.g the early DBS ‘formica’ look). Headlining nearly always has to be replaced, as you suggest.
Chrome is an easy one. It’s either savable or it isn’t. If the former, I would always stick with what I have rather than rechrome. If not, not.
Engine: Agreed, although I’d almost always upgrade with modern fans, filters, pumps, ignition parts etc.. Sometimes, carburetors can be replaced sensibly and cam profiles changed e.g. upgrading a DB Aston to Vantage spec., if so desired.
Box: Trick-some topic. I would not hesitate to junk the Borg Warner box, say, and replace it with a modern auto in the way demonstrated by David. To convert from auto to manual (or t’other way) is such a personal thing, it is hard to comment. However, for myself I would not hesitate on grounds of originality and, to me, to hold otherwise is a fine example of what I term ‘nerdism’ and gets my goat. Ditto adding an overdrive unit or a discrete PAS system – why on earth not? The most tricky issue (for me) would be whether to swap a period manual box for a modern one. To replace, say, a DB or a ZF box for a Tremec transforms the car – super efficient by comparison and modern in feel. But, that’s the issue, of course; do you want your classic to ‘feel’ modern in any way? Very personal stuff.
Brakes and suspension: Ditto – I have no problem at all with modern upgrades, personally.
Chassis: Restore with a vengeance, I say, and eradicate ‘known’ design flaws whilst you’re at it. I’d go further and say that anyone who holds otherwise will live to regret their dogmatic approach.
Bodywork: As I’ve said all along, it is possible to do the job properly without de-skinning, but only just. The thing comes apart in great chunks in any event and I do not think that anything is lost on any DB 3.7/4 litre car to go this way. Other cars – particularly pre-war cars and DB Lags – are a different matter. I do not think you lose any ‘originality’ by taking off the front and back to deal with the Superleggera properly.
Paintwork: If you like what you have, keep it. If you don’t, repaint. I don’t see this as an issue at all.
Tim
Christian, my point was simply that ‘barn find’ unmolested condition is not, as you suggest strongly, a/the sine qua non of or for originality.
I, too, prize originality – but, not above all things by any means. Subtle upgrades to reflect modern driving conditions and technical developments trump such considerations, in my opinion.
I think that the only point upon which we are likely to agree is that cars in tip-top condition with a nice degree of original patina are more attractive and, in a sense, ‘better’ cars than those that have been subjected to a nut and bolt restoration. As the late RH Alan Clark put it so memorably, when describing the outcome of a ground-up restoration of a RR Silver Ghost bought cheaply by a friend, “a beautiful object, a noble artifact’ had become “transformed, unrecognizable – and ghastly” having “undergone a complete character change, becoming a kind of status symbol”.
Used also on DB5, DB6 and DBS.
The coat hooks are ‘bog standard’ AM parts – used on the DB cars. I might have some tucked away but, in any event, they crop up on ebay often enough. Have you tried Puddleduck?
Indeed, but (cynically) so what? I would agree that if one wanted a time-warp (true) barn find Rapide it would be hard to find a better candidate than 126. However, that doesn’t mean that many of the other 54 cars aren’t (now) in great original condition too (whatever definition one might adopt). And, buying a true barn find is not a job for the faint-hearted or the shallow of pocket.
To be fair to him, Francis did say “eventually” need a total rebuild. I neglected to go to the DBR2 day (drat) but assume your ‘looks OK’ comment was deliberately ‘tongue in cheek’ David? Or, were you there and able to get ‘up close and personal’ with the beast?
@ Simon, No offence taken at all (and I didn’t mean to give any contrary impression). Yes, I hope to be at the auction on the Saturday and the Concours on the Sunday.
@ Christian, I am not at all sure what you mean. By ‘original’ do you mean ‘original and unrestored’? If so, you may well be correct although a cynic might respond with ‘and, so what?’ If you mean ‘to factory specification precisely as per build sheet and build’ you might also be correct. But, a cynic might respond similarly. If you mean ‘to the factory specification as per build sheet but ignoring minor upgrades and improvements’ I doubt that you are correct. But, again, the cynics etc. etc..
My short point is this: If you want to buy a Rapide, my ‘counsel of perfection’ is to ‘buy the best car you can find and afford’ OR buy a ‘special build’ car OR buy a ‘special history’ car. If you are lucky enough to own already a car falling into one or more of these categories, why would you buy another comparable car – surely, you’d look for something better? :crazy:
Simon,
If I wanted another Rapide, I would buy a car in better condition than 126, 132 or 137. 🙂
T
Simon,
No commission from Chris, I can assure you (although, if he reads all this and wants to offer me a discount on anything I won’t object 😀 ). It’s just that I don’t know of any other trader ‘out there’ who seems as committed to the DB Lagondas as Four Ashes (although all other recommendations will always be gratefully received by me – knowledge is power etc.). And, yes, Chis is ‘Bruno’ on the AMOC forum.
Re your query concerning the pump cover, I’m merely parroting. You’ll have to take it up with Chris himself (don’t shoot the messenger).
I agree completely with your sentiments about dealing with hulks.
As for why the 2.6 saloons remain largely unloved (which is still the case so far as I am concerned), i think it can only be because, as with many other cars of the era, much ’40s UK automotive body design is considered by many to have been eclipsed in beauty considerably by what followed in respect of many marques during the course of the following two decades. There is a certain lumpiness to the 2.6 saloon that detracts from an otherwise super motor, to my way of thinking. However, when you see an example in fine condition, and particularly with a very well chosen livery (they work best i think in the right two-tone), the quality of these cars just shines through. You certainly get a lot of car for your money, as you suggest.
Tim
Simon,
Well done for spotting this car. I agree with a lot that you say.
What you refer to as “the latest craze of Aston Martin owners, to throw away perfectly good and original gear-boxes, for newer modern 5-speed alloy boxes” is nothing new, actually. DB5, DB6 and DBS owners cursed with the Borg Warner slush box as standard on their cars have long sought alternative transmissions. On the AMOC forum there are numerous threads going back many years on this topic. Also, some DB4 owners have been keen to discard the David Brown 4 speed box in favour of either the 5 seed ZF number used on the DB5/6/S or modern ‘off the shelf’ numbers such as the well-respected Tremec alternative.
However, Chris Adams at Four Ashes, who has considerable experience of 2.6 and 3 litre Lagondas as well as Astons, recommends keeping the 4 speed and adding a modern overdrive unit. By the way, his further five top tips are:
(1) Get the radiator reconditioned with a high performance core or have a new radiator made in alloy.
(2) Fit an internally shaped alloy water pump cover/fan boss.
(3) Overhaul the distributor and change the distributor advance curve for a more modern setting.
(4) Fit a glass bowl fuel filter.
(5) Move the fuel pump on 2.6 litre models to the 3 litre location.
Chris can also supply almost every part needed to rebuild a 2.6 or 3 litre DB engine.
Regards,
Tim
If you’ve found any filler in your car, Christian, it’s a non-original feature. 😀
I agree, Simon. But, it illustrates my points on tis subject. The Bonhams car last year made over twice this sum at auction. So, given the availability of funds paying ?50k for a very good car makes more sent than paying ?20k for a car upon which one could easily spend a further ?50k. But, the point made by David elsewhere is also pertinent – if the car is in good useable condition, it can be enjoyed as it is over many years and treated as a bit of a rolling restoration. it all depends on the state of the underpinnings, as i know we both agree.
Regards,
Tim
As with all these cars, if you can see that there is welding to be done, this is likely to be the tip of the iceberg. Although there are those on this forum who will disagree, to me there is no point in restoring a Rapide fully without de-skinning. Sure, you can strip the car right down and then use an endoscope etc. to view the Superleggera structure. But, frankly, why take the risk? As well as being able to cut out every last bit of rust and to e-coat the tubing etc., de-skinning also has the advantage of allowing for the insertion of modern materials between steel and alloy and thus cap off the spectre of future electrolytic issues.
I haven’t seen this car but it sounds like yet another example of the results of taking the ‘other’ view of car restoration. Lots of money seems to have been spent, and to little point since the effort has been undermined by parsimony.