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And hats off to those who take on a field-find!
Have you tried Puddleduck?
Yes, very funny Tim! I’ve asked ASD if they have any.
Carrying on the originality topic…
You can say ‘so what’ to anything, it all depends on what you value in a classic car. Personnally I like originality and think that over restoring a car can destroy some of its authenticity.
Having said that I plan to fit an electric fan, epas, a 15″ sub woofer in the boot, neons, side skirts, a spoiler, bad boy alloys and lower it by 3″.
Christian, my point was simply that ‘barn find’ unmolested condition is not, as you suggest strongly, a/the sine qua non of or for originality.
I, too, prize originality – but, not above all things by any means. Subtle upgrades to reflect modern driving conditions and technical developments trump such considerations, in my opinion.
I think that the only point upon which we are likely to agree is that cars in tip-top condition with a nice degree of original patina are more attractive and, in a sense, ‘better’ cars than those that have been subjected to a nut and bolt restoration. As the late RH Alan Clark put it so memorably, when describing the outcome of a ground-up restoration of a RR Silver Ghost bought cheaply by a friend, “a beautiful object, a noble artifact’ had become “transformed, unrecognizable – and ghastly” having “undergone a complete character change, becoming a kind of status symbol”.
Excellent some life in the old forum, good to see:
Christian – all good valid points, but any largely original car, will due to the age of it, need a fair bit of money spending on it, to bring it back to a good standard; update with PAS, electric fan; auto-gearbox upgrade if required to 4-speed etc.
The other modifications sound a bit naughty.. if you lower the car by 3 inches, then it will practically hit the floor, it is low enough already; might I suggest a compromise of 1.5 inches and a larger spolier to give better ground effects…
Tim- Originality vs restoration, a very tough cookie and where do you start, so here is a gentle opener..
Interior – reconnolising or repairing – still original trim, and same with walnut dashboard if it has to be french polished or interior chrome-work re-done. head lining, most will have sagged by now and need repalcement. Originality compromised – no.
Chrome-work- leave as is with verdigris and rust, I think not, have it replated or replace bumpers only with stainless steel? Originality compromised -possibly for bumpers, but very practuical solution, since many are now beyond re-plating
Engine / box- overhaul and rebuild /repair as required, still original, for some cars, just a long time since last major service..
Brakes and suspension – ditto
Chassis outriggers, sills, floor pans etc – leave it all as it is, and enjoy the patina and watch your car crumble into a bull of dust. I think not, sympathetic repair and replacement, to ensure structural integrity of the car and at the same time, certain rust trap areas sorted out, with drain holes, modern rust proofing materials etc..
Body-work – there are those who think should deskin back to the superlegera frame, sort it and then dip it to ensure electroytic problems are reduced. The other approach is to strip down as far as possible, and this exposes most of the frame-work anyway, and repair as required.
Paint-work – if you have deskinned, then where is the originality ?
Personally, imho, I think each car of these nearly unique machines should be treated on a car by car basis, there is no universal formula for all.
LR108- 25 years outside. Car stripped down to chassis, all original parts wherever possible have been stripped, repaired, reconditioned or where to rusted and beyond use, replaced with correct pattern items; major chassis work required of course. Originality imho, very good indeed and would happily have as well.
LR120 which I had a good look at, had been sadly neglected, and needs vast amounts of welding, a full respray, interior partially retrimmed, with black seats, and original red-trim to doors, new head-lining. But done by works service, originality at the moment, still good, but would look better with wide alloys and dark tinted windows, but not for me.
Curious what is the situation with your car now and in what state did you find it?
Before I finish this email, I have watched the AMOC web-site with interest for a long while. Where do you place the many pristine DB cars which have had a complete strip down, update /renovate, nuts and bolts rebuild, engine engine enlargement, gear-box change to a modern box and now look like new cars ?
Simon
I prefer to repair my cars rather than restore them, so that the patina continues to develop rather than being polished away.
Interesting stuff!
Just to make it clear that I was not being serious about lowering the car and adding bad boy alloys etc – epas and electric fan yes.
May I add to this very enjoyable debate… people come up to me when I am using my Lagonda – mainly my 1927 2L – they say “do you like restoring it” or suchlike… I say “yes, but wearing it out is more fun…”
I think that pragmatic repair/replacement is the right approach – eg modern oils, brake lining materials etc, etc. The patina does indeed develop, though sometimes a bit too quickly!
I value and respect MOT tests to probe the safety-critical aspects of my cars.
Colin
Christian hi – I know you were not serious about those improvements, just adds to the fun on the forum. I am not sure that a Rapide would look good with a cam spoiler like the DB6 has; but I like the wide alloys and ground effects, deep tinted windows and a good sound system with deep bass as well.
Colin – thanks for your input, good to hear from an owner of an older car, who may indeed have seen their car repaired multiple times over it 85 year life; and no doubt the odd restoration as well thrown in.
You are 100% right with respect to MOT’s, good to have a totally independent check over of the car.
Simon
Simon,
I think that we are almost in agreement re ‘originality’ (whatever that means). Let’s check…
First off, I don’t think that the issue is ‘originality vs restoration’. As i think I’ve said, IMHO absolute originality is hard to define (and thus achieve/obtain) and, in any event, it is open to question as to how desirable such a result might be.
I do agree that each car must be assessed individually.
Re interior, I do agree that, in the vast majority of cases, reconnolising or repair of leather is the best solution – always assuming that the existing colour is desired by the owner. Original interior wood (and other) trim is also almost always best, although I can think of exceptions e.g the early DBS ‘formica’ look). Headlining nearly always has to be replaced, as you suggest.
Chrome is an easy one. It’s either savable or it isn’t. If the former, I would always stick with what I have rather than rechrome. If not, not.
Engine: Agreed, although I’d almost always upgrade with modern fans, filters, pumps, ignition parts etc.. Sometimes, carburetors can be replaced sensibly and cam profiles changed e.g. upgrading a DB Aston to Vantage spec., if so desired.
Box: Trick-some topic. I would not hesitate to junk the Borg Warner box, say, and replace it with a modern auto in the way demonstrated by David. To convert from auto to manual (or t’other way) is such a personal thing, it is hard to comment. However, for myself I would not hesitate on grounds of originality and, to me, to hold otherwise is a fine example of what I term ‘nerdism’ and gets my goat. Ditto adding an overdrive unit or a discrete PAS system – why on earth not? The most tricky issue (for me) would be whether to swap a period manual box for a modern one. To replace, say, a DB or a ZF box for a Tremec transforms the car – super efficient by comparison and modern in feel. But, that’s the issue, of course; do you want your classic to ‘feel’ modern in any way? Very personal stuff.
Brakes and suspension: Ditto – I have no problem at all with modern upgrades, personally.
Chassis: Restore with a vengeance, I say, and eradicate ‘known’ design flaws whilst you’re at it. I’d go further and say that anyone who holds otherwise will live to regret their dogmatic approach.
Bodywork: As I’ve said all along, it is possible to do the job properly without de-skinning, but only just. The thing comes apart in great chunks in any event and I do not think that anything is lost on any DB 3.7/4 litre car to go this way. Other cars – particularly pre-war cars and DB Lags – are a different matter. I do not think you lose any ‘originality’ by taking off the front and back to deal with the Superleggera properly.
Paintwork: If you like what you have, keep it. If you don’t, repaint. I don’t see this as an issue at all.
Tim
Tim, I concur.
On the headlining; from what I could see and feel the headlining of 126 was WOE cloth in very good unsaggy condtion but did require a steam (or another method) clean. I’ve removed my WOE headlining and was really pleased to buy the last of a roll of the exact same stuff, but it is a huge job and should be part of a 100% strip down due to the way it’s installed.
I do actually agree with you on the deskinning as well and if money and space were no issue then 1. I would pay someone else to do the work and 2. Would put my money into something else… Anyhow, getting back to the point. It can be done but it involves a great deal of time and skill to work around the very awkward bits of body which get in the way…especially in the engine bay. You cannot avoid removing some of the body like the outer sills.
The gearbox point you raise is very interesting. I’m fortunate to have an original manual box, I’m not expecting it to be brilliant but due to it rarity and the fact it will never feel like a ‘modern’ car anyhow am going to retain it…though I occasionally wonder about o/d.
Brakes, what’s not to love about the dodgy Dunlop calipers? Okay so the later designs were much simpler and more reliable but I personnally wouldn’t want to get rid of them because they do work well when looked after and in my mind are part of the charactor or the car – a modern feature at the time.
Lets talk electric windows. Mine apparently work but I’m thinking of not even bothering with them and fitting modern motors etc – any thoughts on this have you done it / are you going to?
Over and out.
I don’t share your view that dodgy brakes are part of a car’s character which is why I’ve gone for SS inserts. No more trouble and they work well including pressing on round Silverstone. Some of the period photos I have of the racing Rapide show just how effective they can be. Do uprate the front springs as well, to stop nose-diving which the Rapide is prone to. Not all Rapides have WOE cloth headlining (colour grey?), and the thin vinyl (?) does not tend to sag.
I had forgotten that your car Christian has a 4-speed manual DB box. First to second can be a problem with cold oil, yes there is technique to using them, very un-modern, but they have a satisfying action and precision like a rifle bolt, especially 2 to 3 then to 4. 1 to 2 can also feel as if there is a slight left offset going through neutral. The key is never to fill them with gear oil (E.g. EP90) containg sulphur as this erodes the phosphor bronze of the synchro rings thus destroying their working; they use standard 20/50 engine oil. This particularly applies to gearboxes which have stood for a long time as when static the oil level only covers about half of each synchro cone, thus causing different wear to top and bottom half. Double de-clutching each way also helps; they do not like to be rushed and if you do they can clang or graunch loudly!Hi David, do you know where to get updated springs? Aston Services told me the Rapide front springs are unique to the car and therefore unavailable…
They were made for my car, sadly don’t know where
Thanks. I’m going to have to stick with the originals then – they’ve been stripped and blasted – I’m hoping the new adustable shocks might help a bit with the nose diving issue…
How have you got on with the electric windows? Did you retain the original motors, do they work okay?
Gentlemen,
may I suggest that you start new topics if the discussion is no longer about LR132 at Bonhams sale? this will make it much easier later if somebody is looking e.g. for springs for the Rapide, which he will not expect to be discussed under this topic
Cheers!
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